Comments on: Best alternative to RDBMS and ORMs : Terracotta http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/ iPhone, Android, mobile, Technology news Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:34:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Strashimir http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-13710 Strashimir Wed, 21 Jul 2010 22:16:27 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-13710 What about SQL aggregate functions? What about SQL aggregate functions?

]]> By: Terracotta – Future of Databases http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-13551 Terracotta – Future of Databases Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:52:26 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-13551 [...] Vulnerabilities Terracotta – Future of Databases digg_url = 'http://www.taranfx.com/terracotta-future-of-databases';digg_title = 'Terracotta – Future of Databases';digg_bodytext = 'Terracotta – Future of Databases'; Share Wednesday, July 21st, 2010 |  #Tags: programming, Terracotta Often when a new technology comes into makret, there are groups that resist the change and others look for the new bright sides. The case is no different for what Terracotta is doing to databases : It’s killing them. [...] [...] Vulnerabilities Terracotta – Future of Databases digg_url = 'http://www.taranfx.com/terracotta-future-of-databases';digg_title = 'Terracotta – Future of Databases';digg_bodytext = 'Terracotta – Future of Databases'; Share Wednesday, July 21st, 2010 |  #Tags: programming, Terracotta Often when a new technology comes into makret, there are groups that resist the change and others look for the new bright sides. The case is no different for what Terracotta is doing to databases : It’s killing them. [...]

]]> By: Taranfx http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-4419 Taranfx Wed, 02 Sep 2009 18:12:54 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-4419 Lucene's tragedy goes here. http://johannburkard.de/blog/programming/java/apache-lucene-the-ghetto-search-engine.html Lucene’s tragedy goes here. http://johannburkard.de/blog/programming/java/apache-lucene-the-ghetto-search-engine.html

]]> By: phil swenson http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-4418 phil swenson Wed, 02 Sep 2009 17:56:38 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-4418 what went wrong with lucene? "The concept never really took off. " is all you really say.... what went wrong with lucene? “The concept never really took off. ” is all you really say….

]]> By: artsrc http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-4394 artsrc Wed, 02 Sep 2009 05:39:45 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-4394 Impedance mismatch is not hard, it is easy. Each concrete class maps to one table, with all the fields of that class. The hard problems are distribution and concurrency. The solution to the distribution is to get the database, or at least some useful part of it, in process. This discussion is about creating and object database. It sounds like you want an object database. What about Zope DB, db4o, objectivity, etc.? Impedance mismatch is not hard, it is easy. Each concrete class maps to one table, with all the fields of that class.

The hard problems are distribution and concurrency.

The solution to the distribution is to get the database, or at least some useful part of it, in process. This discussion is about creating and object database.

It sounds like you want an object database. What about Zope DB, db4o, objectivity, etc.?

]]> By: Gnrfan http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-4386 Gnrfan Tue, 01 Sep 2009 21:28:04 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-4386 Take a look at http://www.ikvm.net/ maybe someone adventures to create a .Net binary for Terracota with it. Take a look at http://www.ikvm.net/ maybe someone adventures to create a .Net binary for Terracota with it.

]]> By: mattmc http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-4372 mattmc Tue, 01 Sep 2009 19:08:19 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-4372 heard of memcached, anyone? heard of memcached, anyone?

]]> By: Tushar http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-2060 Tushar Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:59:34 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-2060 @cameron, For scale Terracotta has partially solved this problem using FX with multiple active-active servers. This provide very good high-availability with cluster-wide coherent data structures and scale. and Your data is stored only in one place. I doubt coherence stores data in central place. You dont know where your data is? How do you manage backup?. When any server goes down how and how much time it takes to recover completely from it? These are things to be considered when you think of any solution as replacement of database ( not virtually RDBMS has its own place and use and I belive Terracotta + RDBMS is the way to achieve scale-out). Off couse FX is first release and way to go. Coherence is very mature product and has its strengths. @cameron,

For scale Terracotta has partially solved this problem using FX with multiple active-active servers. This provide very good high-availability with cluster-wide coherent data structures and scale. and Your data is stored only in one place.
I doubt coherence stores data in central place. You dont know where your data is? How do you manage backup?. When any server goes down how and how much time it takes to recover completely from it? These are things to be considered when you think of any solution as replacement of database ( not virtually RDBMS has its own place and use and I belive Terracotta + RDBMS is the way to achieve scale-out). Off couse FX is first release and way to go. Coherence is very mature product and has its strengths.

]]> By: Cameron Purdy http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-1187 Cameron Purdy Sun, 07 Jun 2009 04:00:53 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-1187 Taranfx - For real applications, Coherence makes Terracotta look like it's standing still. Data grid applications don't just move data, they spread work out, and Terracotta suffers from using a central server with the workers all remote. Not sure what "http session sharing schemes" you are referring to, but many of the big online retailers are using Coherence for their HTTP sessions, and Terracotta can't touch the scale or the performance that Coherence provides. Peace, Cameron Purdy | Oracle http://coherence.oracle.com Taranfx -

For real applications, Coherence makes Terracotta look like it’s standing still. Data grid applications don’t just move data, they spread work out, and Terracotta suffers from using a central server with the workers all remote.

Not sure what “http session sharing schemes” you are referring to, but many of the big online retailers are using Coherence for their HTTP sessions, and Terracotta can’t touch the scale or the performance that Coherence provides.

Peace,

Cameron Purdy | Oracle
http://coherence.oracle.com

]]> By: Taranfx http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-751 Taranfx Wed, 13 May 2009 22:27:05 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-751 cheers @David Indeed a braveful act and a memorable worth sharing an experience.. wud u like to share ur experience? we can blog it down.. mail me: taranfx [at] gmail [dot] com cheers @David
Indeed a braveful act and a memorable worth sharing an experience..
wud u like to share ur experience? we can blog it down..
mail me: taranfx [at] gmail [dot] com

]]> By: David http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-749 David Wed, 13 May 2009 21:53:45 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-749 I've successfully removed my dbms completely from our transaction processing system using Terracotta. It works wonderfully. I’ve successfully removed my dbms completely from our transaction processing system using Terracotta. It works wonderfully.

]]> By: Manik Surtani http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-735 Manik Surtani Wed, 13 May 2009 08:09:31 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-735 @Fabrizio Giudici Have a look at JBoss Cache - http://www.jbosscache.org - a replicated, in-memory object cache which does support JTA. Or better still, the Infinispan project - http://www.infinispan.org - a distributed data grid platform. But yes, overall good article, could not agree more that databases are overused and abused and are probably the single biggest bottleneck in almost any system. Bring on "persistence to clustered memory"! @Fabrizio Giudici
Have a look at JBoss Cache – http://www.jbosscache.org – a replicated, in-memory object cache which does support JTA. Or better still, the Infinispan project – http://www.infinispan.org – a distributed data grid platform.

But yes, overall good article, could not agree more that databases are overused and abused and are probably the single biggest bottleneck in almost any system. Bring on “persistence to clustered memory”!

]]> By: Pavel http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-729 Pavel Tue, 12 May 2009 23:26:38 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-729 we don't have completely remove RDBMS, i think would be nice to have best of both worlds together, RDBMS to manage refs between objects and something else to store other object data, like here : http://jwebd.blogspot.com/2009/04/may-be-we-need-both-rdbms-and-key-value.html we don’t have completely remove RDBMS, i think would be nice to have best of both worlds together, RDBMS to manage refs between objects and something else to store other object data, like here :
http://jwebd.blogspot.com/2009/04/may-be-we-need-both-rdbms-and-key-value.html

]]> By: Taranfx http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-714 Taranfx Mon, 11 May 2009 18:54:24 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-714 @mmthm >>You can not report on a log. I didnt mean actual "log", All I meant was database can be compared to "a history-aware data store" for warehousing analysis and reports (just lik it is done today). >>What is you goal if you now say that you do need an RDBMS? I thought that the post was trying to suggest an alternative to an RDBMS? Purpose of the post was to indicate the primary purpose of RDBMS can be replaced with terracotta, but RDBMS will still exist for secondary reasons. :) Its an endless discussion. Perception is like A** Hole, Every one has one ..lol @mmthm
>>You can not report on a log.
I didnt mean actual “log”, All I meant was database can be compared to “a history-aware data store” for warehousing analysis and reports (just lik it is done today).

>>What is you goal if you now say that you do need an RDBMS? I thought that the post was trying to suggest an alternative to an RDBMS?

Purpose of the post was to indicate the primary purpose of RDBMS can be replaced with terracotta, but RDBMS will still exist for secondary reasons.
:)
Its an endless discussion.
Perception is like A** Hole, Every one has one ..lol

]]> By: mmthm http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-713 mmthm Mon, 11 May 2009 18:29:25 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-713 @Taranfx >> See, in today’s world primary purpose of databases has been persistence If persistence is all you care about, then a dbms is not necessary. But almost all business applications in today's world require all the items i mentioned. You can not do complex queries or queries over large objects using a log. You can not report on a log. You can not browse the object model/data/schema of a log, etc.... I guess if you built a log processor that somehow replayed all the transactions into an RBMS, then some of this problems could be solved, but aren’t you just deferring the problems you were trying to avoid (the use of RDBMS and ORMs)? And building a transactional logging system that *never* failed to lose a single message would be very difficult. Not something you would want to rebuild for every application. And if you did lose a message how would get your DBMS consistent with the app data? Or if there were DBMS transactions errors, what would you do? Queries on large collections is still difficult because the DBMS and the app are no longer consistent. >> RDMBS still needs to exist. but primary database wud be Terracotta. RDMS logging can be a secondary thread through some sort of new API like log4j for logging.. similar for DB that runs in What is you goal if you now say that you do need an RDBMS? I thought that the post was trying to suggest an alternative to an RDBMS? It seems you still have the RDBMS problem (and likely the ORM issues, since you need to somehow get your data into the RDBMS), except now you have a lot of extra design/implementation complexities. If the log operated in write-behind manner, and you managed to solve all the reliability and consistency issues, then performance could be a very nice tradeoff for all the added complexity (maybe), but that is a different topic than using Terracotta as a replacement for a RDBMS. I think Terracotta can be used wonderfully for many use cases that can help simplify and speed applications (cluster caching, grid processing, etc…), but I have not seen a reasonable architecture for making Terracotta the system of record for common business application. @Taranfx
>> See, in today’s world primary purpose of databases has been persistence

If persistence is all you care about, then a dbms is not necessary. But almost all business applications in today’s world require all the items i mentioned. You can not do complex queries or queries over large objects using a log. You can not report on a log. You can not browse the object model/data/schema of a log, etc….

I guess if you built a log processor that somehow replayed all the transactions into an RBMS, then some of this problems could be solved, but aren’t you just deferring the problems you were trying to avoid (the use of RDBMS and ORMs)? And building a transactional logging system that *never* failed to lose a single message would be very difficult. Not something you would want to rebuild for every application. And if you did lose a message how would get your DBMS consistent with the app data? Or if there were DBMS transactions errors, what would you do? Queries on large collections is still difficult because the DBMS and the app are no longer consistent.

>> RDMBS still needs to exist. but primary database wud be Terracotta. RDMS logging can be a secondary thread through some sort of new API like log4j for logging.. similar for DB that runs in

What is you goal if you now say that you do need an RDBMS? I thought that the post was trying to suggest an alternative to an RDBMS?

It seems you still have the RDBMS problem (and likely the ORM issues, since you need to somehow get your data into the RDBMS), except now you have a lot of extra design/implementation complexities.

If the log operated in write-behind manner, and you managed to solve all the reliability and consistency issues, then performance could be a very nice tradeoff for all the added complexity (maybe), but that is a different topic than using Terracotta as a replacement for a RDBMS.

I think Terracotta can be used wonderfully for many use cases that can help simplify and speed applications (cluster caching, grid processing, etc…), but I have not seen a reasonable architecture for making Terracotta the system of record for common business application.

]]> By: Lincoln http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-711 Lincoln Mon, 11 May 2009 17:46:48 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-711 One of the primary objectives of the RDBMS is providing performant access to data while consuming as little space on disk as possible. Having all objects in "memory" whether on disk or in RAM would be a HUGE space overhead. One of the primary objectives of the RDBMS is providing performant access to data while consuming as little space on disk as possible. Having all objects in “memory” whether on disk or in RAM would be a HUGE space overhead.

]]> By: Taranfx http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-710 Taranfx Mon, 11 May 2009 16:03:23 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-710 @mmthm >>Terracotta looks very cool, but regarding “the only reason”…. What about opperational (realtime) reporting? External integration? Queries of large amounts of objects, or queries where sql is used (joins, aggreages, unions,etc), where indexing is needed for reasonable performance? What about adhoc querying and schema browsing? What about schema evolution? Even you case of a BI requirement, how to you get the data into the warehouse? See, in today's world primary purpose of databases has been persistance, if we can tackle this using technologies like terracotta, the only other need for database will be for logging. Logging in the sense for maintaining HISTORY of transaction, HISTORY for reporting, etc. It would be nothing more than a reservoir which will give access to all that was there in the past. use data warehousing or cubes or watever for analytics, etc... Now the answer to ur 2nd question: RDMBS still needs to exist.. but primary database wud be Terracotta. RDMS logging can be a secondary thread through some sort of new API like log4j for logging.. similar for DB that runs in background :P @mmthm
>>Terracotta looks very cool, but regarding “the only reason”….
What about opperational (realtime) reporting? External integration? Queries of large amounts of objects, or queries where sql is used (joins, aggreages, unions,etc), where indexing is needed for reasonable performance? What about adhoc querying and schema browsing? What about schema evolution?

Even you case of a BI requirement, how to you get the data into the warehouse?

See, in today’s world primary purpose of databases has been persistance, if we can tackle this using technologies like terracotta, the only other need for database will be for logging. Logging in the sense for maintaining HISTORY of transaction, HISTORY for reporting, etc.
It would be nothing more than a reservoir which will give access to all that was there in the past. use data warehousing or cubes or watever for analytics, etc…
Now the answer to ur 2nd question:
RDMBS still needs to exist.. but primary database wud be Terracotta. RDMS logging can be a secondary thread through some sort of new API like log4j for logging.. similar for DB that runs in background :P

]]> By: Taranfx http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-709 Taranfx Mon, 11 May 2009 15:55:54 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-709 @Fabrizio Giudici The challenges w.r.t. to transactions would be a better impedance match with JTA. Integrating this with Terracotta could be one of the remedies. I`ll do a test lab on this and will get back to u. @Fabrizio Giudici
The challenges w.r.t. to transactions would be a better impedance match with JTA. Integrating this with Terracotta could be one of the remedies.
I`ll do a test lab on this and will get back to u.

]]> By: Rex http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-708 Rex Mon, 11 May 2009 15:40:48 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-708 Well Hibernate offers criteria which is abit more intuitive than HQL. I think our problem is not just with transactions but with more basic things like backup/restore, setting up QA servers etc :/ Well Hibernate offers criteria which is abit more intuitive than HQL. I think our problem is not just with transactions but with more basic things like backup/restore, setting up QA servers etc :/

]]> By: Curt Cox http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-707 Curt Cox Mon, 11 May 2009 15:33:12 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-707 Two interesting experiments (Java only) that you didn't mention are Prevayler and PJama. ORM has gone directly from being widely available to being overused. I don't think you're completely wrong, but relational databases excel as a combination of integration and persistence. A well designed schema supports many different views of the data well at the same time. Prevayler http://www.prevayler.org/wiki/ PJama http://research.sun.com/forest/opj.main.html Two interesting experiments (Java only) that you didn’t mention are Prevayler and PJama. ORM has gone directly from being widely available to being overused. I don’t think you’re completely wrong, but relational databases excel as a combination of integration and persistence. A well designed schema supports many different views of the data well at the same time.

Prevayler
http://www.prevayler.org/wiki/

PJama
http://research.sun.com/forest/opj.main.html

]]> By: mmthm http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-706 mmthm Mon, 11 May 2009 15:14:46 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-706 >> The only reason I can see is, to make data available for data-mining and (so called) business intelligence packages (or warehousing, of course). Most of these tools are already designed around a database. Terracotta looks very cool, but regarding "the only reason".... What about opperational (realtime) reporting? External integration? Queries of large amounts of objects, or queries where sql is used (joins, aggreages, unions,etc), where indexing is needed for reasonable performance? What about adhoc querying and schema browsing? What about schema evolution? Even you case of a BI requirement, how to you get the data into the warehouse? >> So, the RDBMS effectively becomes a logging mechanism. How do you "log" to the RDBMS? With an ORM? >> The only reason I can see is, to make data available for data-mining and (so called) business intelligence packages (or warehousing, of course). Most of these tools are already designed around a database.

Terracotta looks very cool, but regarding “the only reason”….
What about opperational (realtime) reporting? External integration? Queries of large amounts of objects, or queries where sql is used (joins, aggreages, unions,etc), where indexing is needed for reasonable performance? What about adhoc querying and schema browsing? What about schema evolution?

Even you case of a BI requirement, how to you get the data into the warehouse?

>> So, the RDBMS effectively becomes a logging mechanism.

How do you “log” to the RDBMS? With an ORM?

]]> By: Fabrizio Giudici http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-702 Fabrizio Giudici Mon, 11 May 2009 12:15:32 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-702 Overall I agree and I long for getting rid of the RDBMS. But your article only deals with the ORM problem: what about transactions? Overall I agree and I long for getting rid of the RDBMS. But your article only deals with the ORM problem: what about transactions?

]]> By: Tonći http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-701 Tonći Mon, 11 May 2009 12:01:19 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-701 I've recently came across Neo4J and CouchDB, have you (or anyone else) given that a try? They're probably not the solution to every problem, but they seem like nice alternatives to RDBMS :) I’ve recently came across Neo4J and CouchDB, have you (or anyone else) given that a try? They’re probably not the solution to every problem, but they seem like nice alternatives to RDBMS :)

]]> By: Jim http://geeknizer.com/best-alternative-to-rdbms-and-orms-terracotta/#comment-700 Jim Mon, 11 May 2009 11:51:55 +0000 http://taranfx.com/blog/?p=736#comment-700 You missed Dreamsource ORM. It solves the mismatch. Development will be easy and fast with Dreamsource ORM. Jim http://www.gwtorm.com for GWT ORM http://code.google.com/p/dreamsource-orm/ You missed Dreamsource ORM. It solves the mismatch. Development will be easy and fast with Dreamsource ORM.

Jim
http://www.gwtorm.com for GWT ORM
http://code.google.com/p/dreamsource-orm/

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